Please stop putting Spiderman games in big open sandbox environments where you swing around and do oh so slight variations on 4 pretty dull mission types (chase/race/collect/etc) and then once in a while toss in a boss fight and/or a somewhat unique mission.
I LOVE Marvel Comics and I LOVE the promise of games based on Marvel Comics. But why can't you guys make a game that feels like a comic? I don't mean art style wise; I don't mean like Comix Zone with panels and cliche stuff like that. I mean feels like a comic in a story based, narrative way: a game that shows off the OTHER aspect that makes Marvel Comics so special: The characters/story. It's not JUST about the powers, you know. But your games are always ONLY about the powers.
The thing that made Stan and co's comics so unique back in the 60's is he was the first guy to say, "Hey, let's treat these stories with some respect, let's treat these characters with respect and in doing so, we'll grow the audience well beyond 8 year old boys- who ONLY care about the powers"....and with that thinking, the entire medium of American comics was reinvented.
As a huge comic and game fan- and as a game designer as well- I really hope Marvel stops ONLY using the HOW TO MAKE A MARVEL GAME template that seems to demand: Open City, Hero Powers, Recycled Missions ad nauseam, and a few Unique things tossed in. And I hope they stop because this template- in most cases- goes against the very thing that makes the comics so special: story.
The games- as well made as some of them are- get boring fast and betray the source material upon which they are based.
If I was making the calls about Marvel games, here's the #1 thing that I would do:take the templates of story based games like God of War, Metal Gear Solid, Devil May Cry 1, etc. and use that template as a jumping off template for games with Spidey, Wolverine, Captain America. Make STORY based games, not POWER based games. I'm not suggesting you take the powers away. I AM suggesting a much more scripted experience that allows players to revel in what makes the comics upon which the game is based so special. You can HAVE some open areas within that structure. Have like 3 really amazing web slinging areas that really show that mechanic off in a fun, excitingly designed way. Just don't base the WHOLE game around it.
And heck, if you gotta go open environment, at least TRY To do unique missions every time. GUN from Activision- who publishes alot of the Marvel games- did a good job of this. It was a big open world but it still felt like I was living in a very cool story/adventure. And I loved that about it.
Now let's be honest: the day to day reasons why things happen in a game company go well beyond the rants and desires of an almost 40 year old man who still occasionally reads comics and still LOVES the Marvel characters (yes, even typing that makes me feel a little pathetic, but what can I do...it true! :)...
And I get why decisions are made for business reasons...games have to come out and there are developers who already have a sandbox game engine and a work structure that allows a sandbox game to get made; games have to come out and publishers know that players like sandbox games so why risk the formula that makes them money,etc. I understand all that. I respect all of that. Makes sense.
As a gamer tho, and a Marvel fan for life, I just don't like it.
David
ps. these pics above are from 1up.com AND they are from the new Marvel game WEB OF SHADOWS. It could be the best game ever. I'm not knocking it as I have not played it. These images were just the impetus behind this post so I figured I'd post them here. And I hope I am wrong, BUT to be fair, from the images it does LOOK like another big open city/run around/swing around game. Now maybe they can make it more fun this time than similarly designed games from the past. I'm hoping cause I'm still gonna be playing it...at least for a few hours!
pps. Yes, I even played the last Spidey game: Friend or Foe and to be fair, that was a better structure for a Marvel game...it was just a- no offense to the team- pretty bland, boring game. Combat was actually pretty good but there was nothing really to it. Granted, it was more for kids so maybe that target group loved it.
ppps. I also played the GHOST RIDER PSP game that was- I thought- pretty good and used a DMC structure. I liked that game; combat was really good/fun. But again, too combat centric. Hell, that's ALL that game was. What is the deal with this pattern? And it's not just comic games...tends to be almost ANY licensed game from an action source (comic/movie/tv show). It's like: let's model the characters and locations and then just have people fight! When will developers or publishers learn that the combat is like ONE PART of the meal...it can't be the whole thing! A whole game that is pretty much JUST going arena to arena and fighting DOES have an audience. But it's not a very big one. And yet, they shove this template down our throats over and over. Why!?!
If you weren't a successful industry pioneer no one would give you the time of day with radical ideas like "story" or that god-forsaken "character development". It's all about fapping to being a SUPER hero! Yeah! I can spray white sticky goo all over my enemies. So can I, Spidey, so can I.
ReplyDeleteI sort of agree with this posting, but when it refers to Spider-Man, I absolutely love the open city web slinging. I don't see how hard it would be for them to create the same open world, but just have a better story and one that doesn't focus on just beating the hell out of random enemies or bosses.
ReplyDeleteFor games like Spider-Man specifically, I think webslinging around the city is a must. It's the illusion of being Spider-Man that makes me play those games for hours (even Spider-Man 3...).
I actually have wished that GTA would have had an easter egg character that was like Spider-Man so you can roam around in that city webslinging and stuff. That would be fun.
Also... why haven't they just had random boss encounters in the Spider-Man games? If they want to put an emphasis on the action portion of Spider-Man, they should really create these random city occurrences that are challenging and somewhat new each time. They have a whole city at their disposal, they should be able to do almost anything.
I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on Marvel Ultimate Alliance. It's another Activision title but done by Raven instead of Shaba or Treyarch.
ReplyDeleteMUA was still mainly about the powers and abilities, with an occasional cut scene was thrown in to keep the story rolling. However, the character leveling / upgrading aspect kept me going, along with being able to choose any four of a large pool of super heroes characters at once. There were also a lot of "throw-back" side missions which were cool if you were into the Marvel universe.
I'm not a comic guy by any means, for what it's worth, and this was my first exposure to many of the Marvel characters. Fuck, I didn't know Blade was part of the Marvel universe for that matter.
I see what what you mean about the super hero template though: Hulk, Superman, Ironman, Spiderman - all recent games that have been made from the same mold it seems. Any bets that the (inevitably) next Batman game will probably be another open world game?
Thanks a lot Dave for clarifying the queries! I kinda 'assumed' the reply for the first query and partly the second one too, you know, the whole temple being magical and all, that's what I thought. Your views regarding the temple throwing the challenges according to the weaknesses and limitations of a person doesn't only makes sense but are totally appropriate. Even in my wildest dreams I didn't even fathom that :D
ReplyDeleteI have played many games but the reason I ADORE God Of War the most is simply 'coz of its superb story more than anything else. I know that a lot of peeps will argue (and I've seen many) that it ain't original and you've just borrowed the ideas from Greek Mytho. and 'molded' it into a story of your own. But that doesn't belittle the very fact that the way you've orchestrated the story and all the issues within the story and rest of the game is not only commendable but articulate. You and the rest of the team indeed deserves all the accolades for being the creator of sucha wonderful and amazing 'experience'.
I've played both GOW I,II a zillion times and still everytime I play I become hooked again like I'm playing it for the first time.
There are a lot many 'insights' and my own ideas about the series that I've come up with over the years. You know, my own take on GOW 3 and some assumptions and observations about GOW II.
I would like to share 'em with ya and all here, that is, if ya want.
Thanks again Dave for taking time from your busy schedule and replying!
May God bless all of us...
Cheers!
I feel the same way with the movies too. It seems that people just think that action sells. It does but comics wise they always had a fairly good story (some were mucho cheesy) but an amazing connection to the reader and the people around the main character in the story. That's one of the reasons I loved Spiderman 1 &2 and hated 3. One and two focused on the problems of Peter Parker's life and how the problems affect both his personalities both masked and true. They did that in three. But here’s what they did wrong. Spiderman had like, no connection to the villains! The last two movies you see more the villains talking and expressing why they are doing this. Sandman (one of my favorite villains) was barley expressed. They just had that intro to him being a crook trying to get money for his kid. Didn't work for me. Eddie Brock happened WAY too fast! And Eric Forman sucked playing him. Gwen doesn't even fit into the story anymore. They just really fucked up Spiderman 3. Too many villains, not enough time to tell there story and connection because of all that action.
ReplyDeletei wish they would just come out with a decent fighting game. that would simulate what kind of fights would really go down in the marvel universe.
ReplyDeleteI don't see why it can't be open world AND have a strong story centric design. The linear form just makes for a simpler and more feasible design process. I do agree that the limited mission variant structure can get pretty boring.
ReplyDeleteI understand you may feel this way about the universe, and while I have felt that some of the games like Spidey 3/friend &foe were very terrible versions, there have been a lot of games that have been great like Ultimate spiderman, hulk ultimate destruction. I think the biggest problem with the marvel/dc games has been the ones tied into movies. They are usually rushed to release along side the movies and they are usually terrible to play. The one thing you did hit on is being a great story tied into the gameplay and one that I have felt really did this is with Marvel Ultimate Alliance. The story was fun and interesting, while the gameplay was good. The gameplay was a little simpilar then I wanted and at times similar across characters, but for the most part this was a really good game. Plus since there was stuff hinted at the sequel which we will probably see at E3 is said to be set in the Marvel Civil War story so that may make this for a very interesting game. That being a story that has a lot to it while opening up for more sequels with the skrull invasion could really make this the superhero game other developers need to copy.
ReplyDeleteAnon- I played all those games and liked them more than the movie tie in games. BUT they were still lacking strong stories and- more importantly- the story tied into the play. Nothing in UA gameplay was story centric...it was all in the cut scenes (with the exception of walking around the Helicarrier and all of the audio speaker elements that made it clear you were in the Marvel U).
ReplyDeleteI have a question for you Dave: Do you ever miss doing BIG games(Like GOW)? Do you think you´ll ever go back to doing games like that? For example, being a marvel fan was there ever any hero game that you would have loved to do? Please answer if you have the time, Im just curious.
ReplyDeleteSee Ya!
luis- yes I am missing big games again and would love to do a few massive games in the future.
ReplyDeleteThe game we are doing now is NOT SMALL AT ALL for the space we are competing in BUT it's not like we are going up against GOD OF WAR or MGS4 or HALO3. So it's wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy bigger than Calling All Cars and much smaller than God of War. More along the scope lines of Twisted Metal: Black...in some ways, bigger than that game. In other ways, smaller.
But I think the future could see me doing a few big ass epics, no doubt.
I can't see Spiderman with the nature of his powers not being in a open world game. The only way I could see it is if you cut the web slinging...but then you cut just about everything. I think the main problem (aside from the shitty gameplay) is them trying to mash as many storylines and villains in as they can. They need to focus on one story with one bad dude.
ReplyDeleteYOu could still have open city and web slinging...but why not web sling around and do a really cool designed mission in the open city that leads to an encased factory or secret base- then when you are inside that location, you can web swing inside the location, but you can't get back outside so you are limited to you 10-30 room level...solve that- filled with story beats, scripted moments, and puzzles- and then get back into your web swing open world....
ReplyDeleteI think that's what the last Spider-man game was trying to be more or less, aside from the part about it being cool :) They just can't seem to polish it up and make it interesting. Well Spider-man 3 movie one I mean, I can't remember if that was the last one or not.
ReplyDeleteOn a side note I didn't even know they were making a new one I hope it isn't terrible :) but it does look like more of the same...
GTA4 proved that a well-made open world game sells and sells well.
ReplyDeleteI will never understand why Marvel can't get a solid-open world mandated with a half dozen or so scripted missions (multi-level) that mimics a comic issue.
And on top that, how about some friggin digital comics included in the game as an award mechanic. I mean how greedy does Marvel have to be to only include comic book covers and not the books themselves.
How about selling frigging digital comics over xbla and/or psn for like 50 cents/issue after the issue has been on store shelves for 4-5 months? I'd fucking buy that...assuming I could get a series run and know every week or so, a new issue would be hitting...Marvel has online comics - and they rock-but I'll be damned if I can figure when an issue will hit, so I don't read series because I can't follow a whole arc...
ReplyDeleteWe need Infinity Ward doing a WWII 3rd person Capt. America game, and the RE4 team doing Batman survivor horror inside Arkham Asylum.
ReplyDeleteHey that would be cool...especially if you could take it with you on the PSP too. I really like Marvels online comic thing they have going. I'm too cheap to actually pay for it but the freebies were cool :)
ReplyDeletePREACH,
ReplyDeleteyeah as much as this video makes us think this game will be different, spider-mans moves / animations were repetitive. There is so much that could be done with the character. But everyone wants to make a game some little kid can swing around the city in and mash buttons till they get sick of it can go back to something else. How about taking a period in spider-man's history and interpreting the stories into a game.
Easy way to make better Spider-Man games: stop trying to make them in 14 months. No ATVI, you DO NOT need a new Spider-Man game every single year. "Annualized franchise" my ass.
ReplyDeleteI agree the first Spider-man game for the Playstation 1 was the model u kind of was talking about it would do great!
ReplyDeleteTo Mr. Jaffe:
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I disagree with regarding this post is the exclusion of a sandbox environment for SpiderMan. Ever since I started reading Spider Man (about a year before the 'Maxiumum Carnage' arc) he has always been slinging around with exhilarating freedom in the city of New York.
So maybe I misunderstood you but I don't see how taking out the 'web-roam' element would benefeit Spider Man.
However, everything else you said I agree on.
Mr. Jaffe if you are serious about your concerns and do not wish to just blog about it, I have a sure fire way for you to actually make an impact on all future comic book based games (and game making in gneral).
1. Realize your position. You are David Jaffe, the creator of the God of War franchise. You have weight to your words, you have clout in the gamer community. There is a reason I ran across your blog on Kotaku.com and not the blog of some random gamer (and I signed up to Gmail/Blogger just to post this reply to boot).
2. The Modder Community. It's simple really. Have a mod made of how you think a Spider Man game should be made, release it, and see what happens. It's one thing for me to go to Moddb.com and request help for a SpiderMan demo but it's entirely another if you were to do so. If it fails then perhaps your ideas for Spider Man game weren't that great. If it is succssful however, not only do you influence how the next Spider Man game is made, you also have the potential to how developers approach making games.
"Hmm... seeing how wildly successful Mr. Jaffee was with his Spider Man mod, maybe we should choose a similiar route, don't you think?"
And those are my 2 cents. Now to see what Gmail has to offer over Hotmail. :)
I think you make a good point about variety in missions/populating the sandbox with fun things to do. But in the case of Spider-man, I think the open city swinging was the best thing to happen to the franchise. The designers on Spider-Man 2 wanted a Tony Hawk-like experience, where the act of locomotion itself was fun and I think they succeeded there. The problem is there wasn't enough to do and enough variety in what there was.
ReplyDeleteWhat did you think of Ultimate Spider-Man? It had some of those repetitious and samey missions too but it had a comic-like art style and a story penned by Brian Michael Bendis and Brian Reed. That's some pretty good writing chops for a video game.
Dude. Why you hating on my game? This is Charlie who worked with you at Sony during the dawn of the 1st god of war.
ReplyDeleteCharlie!!! Hey man! Are you at Shaba? Is Quinn still there too?!?!
ReplyDeleteRead the post dude!! Read the follow up post as well! I am not hating on your game. Combat looks fantastic- as I said!
But if all I do in your game is the combat with some rinse-repeat missions, then come on, you guys can't be any more happy about that as most gamers are going to be. As amazing as the combat looks- and it DOES look fantastic- I have a hard time seeing how you can sustain a 6-20 hour play experience in a way that does not get dull.
And again, as I said, I have not played your game. Perhaps the missions are fantastic and varied. As a huge Spidey fan, I'm hoping so!
How the hell are you otherwise? Hit me up on Facebook and we'll catch up!
David
I think somebody misses the old school PS1/DC Spiderman titles that focused on one set pathway and one big story.
ReplyDeletehttp://psx.ign.com/objects/011/011498.html
I personally think the reason there is no story in the Spidey titles is because nobody wants to put any focus on Peter Parker. So all you are left with is Spidey doing what Spidey does. If they were to do an open world design I'd like to see some consequence to always being spidey. I don't think anybody has ever made a game about the dual roles of superheroes.
I also think a MGS-esque wolvie game would be fantastic. Lots of sneaking and silent kills to get to a scene with a boss.
As previous posters mentioned Marvel Ultimate Alliance was great.
ReplyDeleteThe story was, "good enough", they had plenty of powerups and unlockables (costumes, characters, powers, etc.) even the trivia was kinda cool. The levelling system actually keeps the game somewhat challenging (even after the first play thourough) In general you could tell the developers really wanted to integrate the Marvel universe in a game. Dave, you gotta pick up the game and play it (get the Gold edition, it's like 30 bucks). Promise you won't be disappointed. (MUA2 is supposedly on deck)
I did play MAU and liked it...but again, at its core it was just gauntlet/diablo...grind, grind, grind...it was that genre of game well done, but to my point: games based on comic heroes need to do more than just emulate the powers of those heroes. But I'll play MAU2 day one as I loved having control of all those heroes!
ReplyDeleteHas everyone forgotten about the great Spider-Man games for the Playstation one? Those had a story, areas to explore, upgradeable powers and alternative costumes. You could even still swing around the city in some levels, although falling caused you to die in the fog bellow the city. All you need to do is open up those areas in between missions that don't involve catching children's balloons.
ReplyDeleteThank you for calling these games out.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with these hero games is that the mindset behind these games is really about not screwing up the game rather than 'let's hit a homerun.'
They feel like a Burger King game extended 6-10 hours too long.
The reason for the mindset is because it's the license that sells the game and they know it.
The thing that leaves me cold about most superhero games, is that I don't feel like a super hero.
ReplyDeleteI believe it was spider man II where I was fought to a standstill ten minutes into the game by a fat boyscout wielding a baseball bat. That does not scream "I am a being of great power."
I would love to see Marvel Comics and a Publisher invest in a comic book-based game as strongly as some companies invest in big AAA titles.
ReplyDeleteIf we could see the production values of games like MGS4 (God...), God of War or Mass Effect in a Spider-Man or Batman game that's completely independent from any upcoming movie, I don't see how that can't be a success.
I mean, think about it, most of the AAA games get a lot more time and money to get made because they're usually new iterations of existing IP, so publishers expect a decent return in their investment and are thus more confident in pushing back dates as necessary. Well, Marvel characters have been around longer than any game characters, and today they've reached heights of popularity never before seen in the comic book industry. This is the perfect time to safely invest in AAA quality games based on comic book characters. Problem is, it probably takes people in power from both Marvel and the game publisher that understand the strengths of both comics and games, and that want to see a game made that takes advantage of these to their fullest.
Another problem might be, and this is just speculation from my young experience in the industry, that fellow designers are sometimes so in love with gameplay mechanics that the very mention of "focusing on the story" makes them feel that their ideas and systems are being pissed on. It’s like they can’t look at the big picture where story can really elevate the enjoyment and immersion of the player. Many developers don't believe in the story/gameplay marriage of games like MGS because they believe the same depth of story and character development can and must be told exclusively by gameplay, which is both wrong and idealistic.
Gameplay has its strengths, but the mere fact that control is given to the player limits what story and character development can be told to enhance the experience by gameplay alone. Games like MGS smartly use cutscenes and codec calls to flesh out characters, so when the player takes back control of Snake, suddenly the world they're playing in and what they're fighting for feels much more important and personal. Sure, some gamers may be turned off by the game forcing the story on the player, something games like BioShock do not. But for those that take in the story as much as the gameplay, the experience is unequal. Rest assured comic book fans will eat any well delivered story from a game featuring their favorite characters, so the audience is already there.
If comic book games finally take advantage of this thinking, and consider that comic books biggest strength lies in their characters and storytelling, then we'll finally see games like Iron Man rival the next big Blockbuster 5: Epic Sequel... I just think it takes many of the people involved to truly care and take the risk, and that's probably not going to be the case for a while.
And it's not like the characters' powers have been consistently well represented either, even if that seems to be the focus these days... but that's a rant for another time.
totally agree....not enough substance in Marvel games these days!
ReplyDeleteI agree with the story based part...I mean I'm definitely the king of Spidey fans, but how could one even reconcile story and the open world feeling of being Spider-Man in New York?
ReplyDeletep.s. tee hee, he liked Ghost Rider, the God of War rip off. :)
I completely, 100% agree with you Dave. That's exactly how a Spiderman game should be made. Spiderman Web of Shadows looks good, especially the combat, but if they can show me a Spidey game with a narrative-driven story with fantastic combat and great open-world gameplay that doesn't recycle missions over and over again I'll be REALLY interested.
ReplyDeleteI have to disagree.
ReplyDeleteI found Spider-Man 2 to be close to perfect. The PS2 Spider-Man 3 was lacking (and I haven't gotten too far in the Xbox 360).
A nice mix between GTA story and open world would be nice, but just a Spider-Man game with villains using different environments and so on would be great.
I agree in that the Spider-man games have these race events, token collections and these seem to not add to what I want in the game. I would prefer to have a better story than throwing part of your team on making paths for the races,and where to put the boss token at.
ReplyDeleteInstead work on the story of the game. I do like the open game but seriously it becomes boring after awhile if you don't have interesting stories with it.
I don't agrree with more Peter Parker stories, yes it is interesting and it would be nice as cutscenes. But I don't want to play as Peter Parker, I want to swing around like Spider-man.
But yeah it would be interesting to add some cool story elements to the game. But I do think the new game that is not from the movies, Spider-man Shadows of web looks liek it will do this.
But I do think there is some lame stuff to keep you busy when all you need to is add some interesting triggers in the level so when Spider-man is swinging and enemy can come after him.
The last game just had icons on the level to go start certain missions, well how about throw stuff in there from enemies of his that are surprising.
Oh I did not expect venom to attack me around this corner and stuff like that.
I don't want to be fighting some gangs when spider-man has a huge cast of enemies to use to keep me interrested.
How would you guys feel about an open world fighting game? If they aren't going to have a story then why not just make it all about the powers and fighting? You could choose a mode your hero and the villian that you want to fight and hunt them down in an open world. Just seeing if you like this idea or think its idiotic
ReplyDeleteI was just thinking you could use classic heroes like superman or batman in an open world to fight villians or create your own hero.
ReplyDeleteIt would also be cool to have the option of choosing your city such as Metropolis or creating your own.
Then you could have modes such as one v. one or a hostage situation.
i wish they would just come out with a decent fighting game. that would simulate what kind of fights would really go down in the marvel universe.
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