Wish I could get free games... anyways yeah good point about developers releasing mind numbing titles I would much rather have a fun 6 hours then a sorta fun 12 hours.
And I'm excited for V8arcade I think it comes out on the 4th but I'll be buying it since I need my car combat fix.
Also why are most of your games PS3? Are they sent to you that way or do you actually choose to play them on that console?
I'm curious, what are your kids being for Halloween? It's my favorite holiday of the year, and always has been. Sadly enough I'm just gonna have to throw something random together.
And about TM's physics..keep them arcade-ie. No one wants to be frustrated by having to take 30 seconds to turn around and re-joust a car. I play TM2PC online all the time, and I KNOW how dramatic it can be to flip back around before my opponent does, and have a chance to freeze me. it happens all the time and it takes long enough as it is. Sometimes realism doesn't belong in video games. I believe people are forgetting what gaming was originally all about, which was to basically, live out a fantasy and do what you couldn't do in real life. Sometimes real isn't fun. Better graphics? Sure, bring them on. Graphics won't damage the fun factor of video games, (Unless they're really really bad), but physics CAN. I'm probably going to be flamed for this, but that was the reason TMB was less fun. No knockback effects, or any real ramming. There was always a "OH SHI-!" second or two when you get popped in the air or get rammed because you have to figure your way out of it or you were going to die. THAT is fun.
Anyway, excuse my spiel. Have a great Halloween :D
Problem is 3 hours of fun is really pushing 60 bucks. Which is what pisses people off. A 2 hour movie is 10 bucks roughly. Unless the game has high repeatability 3 hours is a rent. So Yes I agree 3 hours of fun is worth it IF it's got great replayability. No replay = too expensive for casual gamers. Which is why Multi Player is so popular. It adds hours of effective replay (if designed right, I'm mainly talking about FPS's with Co-op and stuff like that.)
Totally agree with you about games and how the FUN value of them should be more important than the time spent playing them.. This is a fundamental problem for basically all MMO's imo. At some point the gameplay for them just becomes really boring, at least for me, and it results in the investment that you put into the game being the only thing that keeps you going. I'm having this problem with FF12 right now..
Thought I'd recommend a scary movie, [REC]. If you can get your hands on that, you won't be disappointed. If you haven't heard of it, the new Quarantine is a remake for the US audience. Not going to bother with that since I've already seen the original. Anyway, enjoy your Halloween!
Dave you know all of us here are going to want your full input when it comes to V8...I've been talking to the developers on and off(these guys are almost as cool as you lol) and it seems that they got a pretty polished game coming out - altough its 10 bucks and they don't have a lot of bells and whistles like TMBo or TMHO had with different gaming modes. The game comes out on Nov 5th - so hopefully see you on there.
The problem we as consumer's of video games have is that we have a dozen or so decent [and I use that term loosely] media outlets who review games.
Fable 2 for instance. I was a huge fan of the first one didn't really hear much about it till it came out. I bought Fable 1 and had a blast with it.
I expected Fable 2 to be excellent [which most media pundits said]. It was lacking for me. The game was too easy and the story sucked yet most people gave the game 8 outta 10 or higher.
Yea the game is pretty deep as far as the social aspects, but it didn't take long for that to get old either.
The point I am trying to make is that most people have to rent/buy a game for themselves to get a true opinion, which sucks if you on a tight budget.
I looked over some of your past posts and you didn't mention anything of Dead Space. The game is pretty intense with decent story. You should really check it out.
Regarding you last comment on game lengths/awesomeness/boringness:
I understand what you mean about the game shouldn't have "fat" or boring parts just to make the game artificially longer. But as a consumer, I would be furious if the game was only 3 hours long for $60. Take another media form of entertainment for example, movies. I can buy a newly released movie for roughly $16-20 and they're usually around 2 hours long. I honestly do not expect a movie to be too much longer then that because a lot of people can't sit still for that long. So not only are they cheaper then games, but they're not interactive so you don't expect them to be as long as a game. Now back to games. As we mentioned, new games are normally priced at $60. Most single player campaigns run from 12-20 hours to accomplish, unless it's an RPG then it could take 30-70 (or even 100s depending on the game) but lets just explode those longer games for now. If I spend $60 on a game, I expect to be entertained for around 16 hours or so, just by the single player alone. I loved the first God of War, but hated how short it was. It took me about 7 or 8 hours to beat. The second God of War met my standards much better. Same awesomeness, same fun, but about twice as long which left me much more satisfied with the purchase. My main point I'm getting here, is that even though an experience can be really awesome, having it extremely short just leaves me disappointed and hungry for more. Even if that 3 hours you mentioned was just a number you tossed off the tip of your tongue, it still seems ridiculous to me, the consumer, especially for $60.
I think if you were to be making a car combat style game it should definitely have an arcade feel.
For me that's what seperates TM (as an example) from V8. V8 does have it's set of fans and I love this little series but I couldn't help but be pig sick by all the catchy kiss play mechanics- trying to line up other cars to get a shot off or having to slowly turn around to get a power up back in sight.
I've been trying to get into Full Auto 2 and that takes the feel of V8 and makes it very sloppy. A nightmare to play.
I think trying to take the realistic route was what screwed up TM3 and to a lesser extent TM4.
I'd really like to think that you'll stay with a more arcade style tight control in the future- somewhere between TM2 and TMB maybe?
I could suggest a horror film for you to watch, well it's not really a film but it looks and feels like it should be one. It's called "dead set" it's a five-part series which was specially shown this past week each night. it's pretty much a zombie outbreak set in Britain, nothing like "shaun of the dead" (it's really gory!) but the only people who don't know about it are these contestants in the reality tv show "big brother". I suggest you look it up, watch some clips, it's really worth watching! hope you had a great Halloween, David!
Good post, I generally like average sized games with plenty of replay value compared to RPGs which last up to 60 hours or more, Final Fantasy 12 being that for me. I got up to level 70 in rank and STILL could not progress as enemies in the next area shot up 10ranks or more.
I wouldn't be surprised if Heavy Rain gets blasted for its length, but I suspect I am going to love to see the different directions the story can go. Unlockables and extra replay value adds more length to me than any RPG and therefore more value for money, in Devil May Cry 3 I clocked up to probably 200 hours on that sucker!
Why? What's so special about wednesday? I'll spend it watching V for Vendetta, and, if it's on (not sure if it's tues or wed night), the Colbert Report and Daily Show Special.
As for V for Vendetta...well, it's the fifth of November. Remember, remember the fifth of november, the gunpowder treason and plot. I know of no reason why the gunpowder treason should ever be forgot.
i love the game-discussion, its so fun to think about.
i first of all want to REALLY encourage you to focus more on the gameplay than the realism. realism is a good thing until it negatively effects part of the gameplay. remember, on the list of important things... GAMEPLAY is always the number one important thing for a game. but then, you know that.
i personally like V8 a lot, but nowhere near as much as Twisted Metal.
its definitely interesting to hear about how you had to tune twisted metal from realistic to arcadey in order to reduce the non-tension filled moments. the only time i ever kind of have a problem with this is in games where, say its a racing game, if your really good at driving, with the right lines and everything, the game will speed up the other cars, and slow your car down, in order to keep the race even. it almost feels disrespectful to the person who put all that effort into learning the course, and focussing hard on the driving. then one crash at the end can leave the much better driver in last place, talk about frustrating!
the thing about the money investment is true, but i think the real reason why we often stick out the slower parts of a game is because games are on a much larger scale, often. if a movie was 40 hours long, trust me.. there would be some slow parts.
i think the slow parts do serve an important role, possibly. think of shadow of the collossus, would it be a better game if you just fought the 16 bosses, with no journey in between? the trips themselves were an experience, which really connected you to your horse, and character.. they showed you vastness in a way a movie really can't do.. theres TIME to do things like that in a game, i think. its part of interacting... where you can take the time to BE, as a character.
maybe i'm wrong, i certainly don't mind games like God of War which are action packed to the brim.. thats certainly a very entertaining experience, and i certainly enjoyed that aspect of the game and wouldn't have changed it if i could.
VERY well said, Dave! Totally agree with the point that games should be able to keep the players interested throughout the whole experience and not the fact that "I paid $60 for it, so I'll deal with the boring parts"
Whether its gameplay, the story, the setting or the experience overall, I think a great game should be able keep the player captivated with any or all of the above mentioned features.
However, nowadays the press seem to criticize a game if its on the short side and some gamers ditch a game if it lacks multiplayer. This even drives developers/publishers to think about whether they should add multiplayer to increase its lasting appeal AND/OR if they should add in those "boring" bits in the single player, just to make the game longer.
Its becoming an issue where if a game feels a bit short in lenght, it gets points subtracted from the final review score. Personally, I dont give a crap about the length as long as the hours I spent playing the game entertained me or not.
Heavenly Sword was a good example in my book. I really enjoyed the story and characters of the game and I didnt mind the length at all. Whereas, Bioshock felt great the 1st 3/4 of the game. But it became boring after that cuz it felt they added in those fetch quests near the end just increase the longevity of the game. Not to mentioned the final boss was such a pushover.
I feel that we gamers shouldnt care about how long the game is but rather how entertaining the overall experience was. Same goes for the press who review the games. That way, developers can fully concentrate on making products that are great instead of worrying about length and features that are becoming a REQUIREMENT in games nowadays.
You know, i had the same feeling from GTA4, some missions were epic yet Saints Row 2 was just " more fun" and even doing multiplayer coop was just better. What really got me jaded by GTA4 was the endings, cmon, really, what was that.
Wow, ur such a dick man...lol J/P... God Of War rocks man...
ReplyDeleteHappy Halloween Jaffe! :)!
ReplyDeleteWish I could get free games... anyways yeah good point about developers releasing mind numbing titles I would much rather have a fun 6 hours then a sorta fun 12 hours.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm excited for V8arcade I think it comes out on the 4th but I'll be buying it since I need my car combat fix.
Also why are most of your games PS3? Are they sent to you that way or do you actually choose to play them on that console?
Damn dude...do you have like a closet full of games!? You need to start a game rental service out of your house :)
ReplyDeleteAnyway I totally dug the controls for TM Black...IF you make a new TM keep it arcadey!
Zack and Miri Make a Prono cover? Nice...dirty up the kids game :)
I'm curious, what are your kids being for Halloween? It's my favorite holiday of the year, and always has been. Sadly enough I'm just gonna have to throw something random together.
ReplyDeleteAnd about TM's physics..keep them arcade-ie. No one wants to be frustrated by having to take 30 seconds to turn around and re-joust a car. I play TM2PC online all the time, and I KNOW how dramatic it can be to flip back around before my opponent does, and have a chance to freeze me. it happens all the time and it takes long enough as it is. Sometimes realism doesn't belong in video games. I believe people are forgetting what gaming was originally all about, which was to basically, live out a fantasy and do what you couldn't do in real life. Sometimes real isn't fun. Better graphics? Sure, bring them on. Graphics won't damage the fun factor of video games, (Unless they're really really bad), but physics CAN. I'm probably going to be flamed for this, but that was the reason TMB was less fun. No knockback effects, or any real ramming. There was always a "OH SHI-!" second or two when you get popped in the air or get rammed because you have to figure your way out of it or you were going to die. THAT is fun.
Anyway, excuse my spiel. Have a great Halloween :D
Lot of cameltoe shots in MGS4, lol. Laughing Octopus, The chick boss you were talking about was 1 of my favorites to fight.
ReplyDeleteSee_You_Next_Wednesday I have no clue what you're referring to, maybe just general.
Problem is 3 hours of fun is really pushing 60 bucks. Which is what pisses people off. A 2 hour movie is 10 bucks roughly. Unless the game has high repeatability 3 hours is a rent. So Yes I agree 3 hours of fun is worth it IF it's got great replayability. No replay = too expensive for casual gamers. Which is why Multi Player is so popular. It adds hours of effective replay (if designed right, I'm mainly talking about FPS's with Co-op and stuff like that.)
Enjoy All Hallows Eve.
Totally agree with you about games and how the FUN value of them should be more important than the time spent playing them.. This is a fundamental problem for basically all MMO's imo. At some point the gameplay for them just becomes really boring, at least for me, and it results in the investment that you put into the game being the only thing that keeps you going. I'm having this problem with FF12 right now..
ReplyDeleteThought I'd recommend a scary movie, [REC]. If you can get your hands on that, you won't be disappointed. If you haven't heard of it, the new Quarantine is a remake for the US audience. Not going to bother with that since I've already seen the original. Anyway, enjoy your Halloween!
ReplyDeleteDave you know all of us here are going to want your full input when it comes to V8...I've been talking to the developers on and off(these guys are almost as cool as you lol) and it seems that they got a pretty polished game coming out - altough its 10 bucks and they don't have a lot of bells and whistles like TMBo or TMHO had with different gaming modes. The game comes out on Nov 5th - so hopefully see you on there.
ReplyDelete*gasp*
ReplyDeleteno hat today!
nice vid Jaffe
ReplyDeleteNice vid once again dave!
ReplyDeleteThe problem we as consumer's of video games have is that we have a dozen or so decent [and I use that term loosely] media outlets who review games.
Fable 2 for instance. I was a huge fan of the first one didn't really hear much about it till it came out. I bought Fable 1 and had a blast with it.
I expected Fable 2 to be excellent [which most media pundits said]. It was lacking for me. The game was too easy and the story sucked yet most people gave the game 8 outta 10 or higher.
Yea the game is pretty deep as far as the social aspects, but it didn't take long for that to get old either.
The point I am trying to make is that most people have to rent/buy a game for themselves to get a true opinion, which sucks if you on a tight budget.
I looked over some of your past posts and you didn't mention anything of Dead Space. The game is pretty intense with decent story. You should really check it out.
Happy Halloween and keep on keeping on!
How do you get all of your games for free? Do all developers get free games from publishers?
ReplyDeleteRegarding you last comment on game lengths/awesomeness/boringness:
ReplyDeleteI understand what you mean about the game shouldn't have "fat" or boring parts just to make the game artificially longer. But as a consumer, I would be furious if the game was only 3 hours long for $60.
Take another media form of entertainment for example, movies. I can buy a newly released movie for roughly $16-20 and they're usually around 2 hours long. I honestly do not expect a movie to be too much longer then that because a lot of people can't sit still for that long. So not only are they cheaper then games, but they're not interactive so you don't expect them to be as long as a game.
Now back to games. As we mentioned, new games are normally priced at $60. Most single player campaigns run from 12-20 hours to accomplish, unless it's an RPG then it could take 30-70 (or even 100s depending on the game) but lets just explode those longer games for now. If I spend $60 on a game, I expect to be entertained for around 16 hours or so, just by the single player alone. I loved the first God of War, but hated how short it was. It took me about 7 or 8 hours to beat. The second God of War met my standards much better. Same awesomeness, same fun, but about twice as long which left me much more satisfied with the purchase. My main point I'm getting here, is that even though an experience can be really awesome, having it extremely short just leaves me disappointed and hungry for more. Even if that 3 hours you mentioned was just a number you tossed off the tip of your tongue, it still seems ridiculous to me, the consumer, especially for $60.
Happy Hollow's Eve to you too M8!
ReplyDeleteI think if you were to be making a car combat style game it should definitely have an arcade feel.
ReplyDeleteFor me that's what seperates TM (as an example) from V8. V8 does have it's set of fans and I love this little series but I couldn't help but be pig sick by all the catchy kiss play mechanics- trying to line up other cars to get a shot off or having to slowly turn around to get a power up back in sight.
I've been trying to get into Full Auto 2 and that takes the feel of V8 and makes it very sloppy. A nightmare to play.
I think trying to take the realistic route was what screwed up TM3 and to a lesser extent TM4.
I'd really like to think that you'll stay with a more arcade style tight control in the future- somewhere between TM2 and TMB maybe?
That's if you ARE makin a TM?
Happy Halloween!
!!!GUY FAWKES!!!
ReplyDeleteI could suggest a horror film for you to watch, well it's not really a film but it looks and feels like it should be one. It's called "dead set" it's a five-part series which was specially shown this past week each night. it's pretty much a zombie outbreak set in Britain, nothing like "shaun of the dead" (it's really gory!) but the only people who don't know about it are these contestants in the reality tv show "big brother". I suggest you look it up, watch some clips, it's really worth watching! hope you had a great Halloween, David!
ReplyDeleteHey Jaffe, did you get a costume?
ReplyDeleteand what about your kids, any geeky coolnes for halloween?
Man, I love Thriller.
ReplyDeleteGood post, I generally like average sized games with plenty of replay value compared to RPGs which last up to 60 hours or more, Final Fantasy 12 being that for me. I got up to level 70 in rank and STILL could not progress as enemies in the next area shot up 10ranks or more.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be surprised if Heavy Rain gets blasted for its length, but I suspect I am going to love to see the different directions the story can go. Unlockables and extra replay value adds more length to me than any RPG and therefore more value for money, in Devil May Cry 3 I clocked up to probably 200 hours on that sucker!
Posted by Temascos
i loved god of ear i never felt bored at all. was too excited what would happen next and the gameplay was cool.
ReplyDeleteAdd some more kiling styles.
but david you surely are a good game designer
mine was ruin i had to work all night and morning. and did not did one thing,
ReplyDeleteand i saw every one else haveing fun :(
Why? What's so special about wednesday? I'll spend it watching V for Vendetta, and, if it's on (not sure if it's tues or wed night), the Colbert Report and Daily Show Special.
ReplyDeleteAs for V for Vendetta...well, it's the fifth of November. Remember, remember the fifth of november, the gunpowder treason and plot. I know of no reason why the gunpowder treason should ever be forgot.
...or something like that :)
Happy Halloween indeed! I was Spider-Man. Shit, I had people stopping me to take my picture. I was badass.
ReplyDeleteman... great video.
ReplyDeletei love the game-discussion, its so fun to think about.
i first of all want to REALLY encourage you to focus more on the gameplay than the realism. realism is a good thing until it negatively effects part of the gameplay. remember, on the list of important things... GAMEPLAY is always the number one important thing for a game. but then, you know that.
i personally like V8 a lot, but nowhere near as much as Twisted Metal.
its definitely interesting to hear about how you had to tune twisted metal from realistic to arcadey in order to reduce the non-tension filled moments. the only time i ever kind of have a problem with this is in games where, say its a racing game, if your really good at driving, with the right lines and everything, the game will speed up the other cars, and slow your car down, in order to keep the race even. it almost feels disrespectful to the person who put all that effort into learning the course, and focussing hard on the driving. then one crash at the end can leave the much better driver in last place, talk about frustrating!
the thing about the money investment is true, but i think the real reason why we often stick out the slower parts of a game is because games are on a much larger scale, often. if a movie was 40 hours long, trust me.. there would be some slow parts.
i think the slow parts do serve an important role, possibly. think of shadow of the collossus, would it be a better game if you just fought the 16 bosses, with no journey in between? the trips themselves were an experience, which really connected you to your horse, and character.. they showed you vastness in a way a movie really can't do.. theres TIME to do things like that in a game, i think. its part of interacting... where you can take the time to BE, as a character.
maybe i'm wrong, i certainly don't mind games like God of War which are action packed to the brim.. thats certainly a very entertaining experience, and i certainly enjoyed that aspect of the game and wouldn't have changed it if i could.
VERY well said, Dave! Totally agree with the point that games should be able to keep the players interested throughout the whole experience and not the fact that "I paid $60 for it, so I'll deal with the boring parts"
ReplyDeleteWhether its gameplay, the story, the setting or the experience overall, I think a great game should be able keep the player captivated with any or all of the above mentioned features.
However, nowadays the press seem to criticize a game if its on the short side and some gamers ditch a game if it lacks multiplayer. This even drives developers/publishers to think about whether they should add multiplayer to increase its lasting appeal AND/OR if they should add in those "boring" bits in the single player, just to make the game longer.
Its becoming an issue where if a game feels a bit short in lenght, it gets points subtracted from the final review score. Personally, I dont give a crap about the length as long as the hours I spent playing the game entertained me or not.
Heavenly Sword was a good example in my book. I really enjoyed the story and characters of the game and I didnt mind the length at all. Whereas, Bioshock felt great the 1st 3/4 of the game. But it became boring after that cuz it felt they added in those fetch quests near the end just increase the longevity of the game. Not to mentioned the final boss was such a pushover.
I feel that we gamers shouldnt care about how long the game is but rather how entertaining the overall experience was. Same goes for the press who review the games. That way, developers can fully concentrate on making products that are great instead of worrying about length and features that are becoming a REQUIREMENT in games nowadays.
What do you think, Dave? :)
You know, i had the same feeling from GTA4, some missions were epic yet Saints Row 2 was just " more fun" and even doing multiplayer coop was just better.
ReplyDeleteWhat really got me jaded by GTA4 was the endings, cmon, really, what was that.