FINALLY got my video blogs working again! Pardon the bed head and the messy office. Between tons of work and 2 sick kids at home, it's been a hell of a week so far!
I definitely see where you are coming from on the issue of DLC. I think it is too blurry of a line to really define what should and should not be done with regards to being sold content that is already on the disc.
One thing I can tell you is if a company gives me a great value for the price and then goes ahead and unlocks additional content for free I will instantly consider anything that company sells down the road with a much more open mind.
When I am charged extra for things it doesn't bother me so much as make me feel like they aren't willing to take that extra step to make me feel appreciated as a customer.
The extra content maybe on the disk, but what you're getting is what's clearly labelled on back of the case.
You shouldn't then expect to get all of these extra's for free, just because it's on the disk. You got what you paid for, you enjoyed the game. Fair play.
I personally think it's good to have the option of being able to purchase DLC, and the reason most dev's put it onto the disk is because it would save a lot of time downloading the extra content, if you could just pay for an unlock code. I hope that makes sense?
Anyway, I'm English myself, and couldn't agree with you more.
One complaint I do have is when (say for example Ubisoft) take content out of Assassins Creed 2, just to make you pay for it at a later date, and then saying it's integral to the storyline.
If it was integral to the storyline, then surely it should have been included in the plot from the start?
ah well, it's business, but yea. Thanks Dave. I always like reading your twitter feeds, and keeping up to date, seeing what you're up to.
Just a quick comment about the horse-shit-game-share issue. Sony already has a system in place to stop multiple PS3 playing the same "game copy". Not all games are using it but Warhawk does. If you play Warhawk on machine A, you will not be able to play on machine B in the next 24 hours.
To be honest, I'm getting sick of DLC. Sometimes I just feel like publishers are leaving good stuff out on purpose and then trying to get more money out of me. Granted, half the time it's worth it, but sometimes it's just, to quote Mr. Jaffe, horseshit!
Look, I understand it's a business and if you look at it from a commerce standpoint, DLC is genius. However, it just comes off as being a disservice sometimes. Look at what Activision just did with MW2: $15 friggin' dollars for 3 new maps plus 2 OLD MAPS THAT I ALREADY OWN ON MW1! I don't see that as $3 a map, it's more like $5 each for 3 maps and some 'bonus' nostalgia. Not worth it, IMO.
Meanwhile, other games like KZ2 and U2 have been getting new dlc for $5-$6 which include maps, weapons, trophies, game modes, etc. So they make up the 50% that makes purchasing dlc worth it.
I'm more of the mindset where, like you mentioned in your video blog, if the game is a good enough experience where I feel my $60 was money well spent (like KZ2 and U2 - neither of which I purchases the DLC for, mind you), then I should be happy and not feel letdown when a company releases new DLC that probably should've been in the game from the beginning bringing my initial $60 purchase to $75.
Okay...the thing that pisses me off about on disc DLC is last gen when we didn't have DLC as widespread...or much at all in the case of the PS2 how would that content have been provided? If it was done when the game was done it was on the disc and you played it. What used to be a cheat code to unlock content is now 5 dollars.
The only time I think on disc DLC is okay is if its given free to the non used game buyers. Support the people that are supporting you.
I totally agree with you on game sharing - if you burned off a DVD and shared it with your friends, Im pretty sure you could get in a load of shit for it.
I kind of agree with you on DLC - I think EA is handling it the best right now, trying to cut down on the abuse of the trade-in market.
That said, I do like some aspects of trading in... I broke my PSP screen today and Im trading in 5 games for a refurbished PSP-2000, so Im kind of conflicted on this now that I think about it lol
But yeah, game sharing is horse shit. Doctor Who is the hot sauce, but never forget - Dexter is king!
btw, I often hear you talk about people being fanboys and how you are not one and I just have to say, although I have never been one either, I did own an xbox 360 since it came out. I recently traded my 20gb xbox 360 with some games for a 120gb ps3 and I love the ps3 already way more than I ever did my xbox 360. I love the fact the online is free because it really is great online for what I need it for. I love the wifi being built in and I love the ps3 exclusives way more than the xbox 360 exclusives. Anyway, kind of random just thought I would tell you that.
I am fine with extra content as DLC or on the disk via a code release. The only let down I have had with DLC was with KZ2. I spent my $12 on the 2 DLC packs that came out, however when DLC Pack 3 comes out for $6 but you can buy all 3 for $12 I felt the screw job on that one. Now I am paying $18 for something that now costs $12. That's just my 2 cents.
As for the good Doctor, the shows from the mid 80's weren't so bad either. It is just finding the time to watch them.
I just thought of the perfect analogy for the DLC on disk problem. It would be like paying for a hotel room and they keep the drink/snack bar locked. If you want to eat/drink anything in there you will have to pay. Are you entitled to get it for free just because it is within the room you pay for? No... if they werent going to charge for it, they wouldnt put it there in the first place.
And you as a customer paid for the room which you hope includes; a bed, bathroom, maybe a window and a TV. They arent locking the bathroom and charging you, just extras that you dont depend on to enjoy your stay.
I agree with everything thanks for the clarifications. The example you gave with that game i hate Batman was really good, but still love game sharing for DLC. Yeah i know is mainly just good for the gamers. But video games mostly make ton of extra profit. I own just the first DLC for Warahwk the rest is by game sharing. Proud Warhawk owner on Blu-ray Disc since 2007.
Hey I just found out about your blog and I love your videos and posts. I agree as well about the DLC. Luckily I've never felt cheated but, I just wanted to say great video and keep them coming!
Haha, loved the accent at the end! As a Brit, it's strange to see Americans amused by Doctor Who, because we all watch it in a sort of ironic way; it's a symbol of Britain, so the shows problems don't get to us. But yeah, the general audience is parents and children, so you'll do good to welcome it into your life. And I'm agreeing with Rob down here V V David Tenant was the best modern Doctor. Phenomenal as the character.
As a customer I love game sharing. Besides if I owned Batman I could take it to my freinds house and play it. Without game sharing this is not possible with psn games. Add to that the fact that you own NONE of your downloaded games, I don't feel bad at all. I say you don't own them because when there is no more psn you can't go back and download things you would have "bought", you're only renting the games. 30 years from now I can put in Killzone 2 and play it. How would I redownload Pain? I won't be able to. Unless I kept all the games I've ever downloaded on my harddrive, who has room for that. I can't even make a nonplayable backup on a harddrive to restore to my PS3 later. As far as dlc goes, it's just a money grab. That's part of the business now. Most of it is a rip off. If the game is multiplatform even more so. I bought the PS3 because it uses blu-ray, more space for gaming goodness, I thought. Instead I get the same game that's available on dvd9 and get to pay for "extra" content. Yeah right. I like how MAG dosen't even pretend to download anything, but they've been free so it's cool. I could go on forever but I'll stop.
I agree with the game sharing problem, I think it's bullshit that people hand out their extra downloads to their friends, then they can keep it on their system and play it whenever they want. In my opinion Valve have got it right with Steam, were you can download it as many times as you want, on as many systems as you want, but that content can only be accessed with your account.
As for Dr. Who, wait until the Weeping angels episode (Think it's the fourth one) it's one of the best Dr. Who episodes I have seen in a long time.
Also I'd just like to say I literally just bought the God of War collection ten minutes before coming on here (It has only just been released here in the UK). I never played the first two God of War games, but I have to say I'm fucking loving it and you and the team certainly did a fine job, but my god I'm crap at it.
Michael, I really don't see DLC as a money grab and am sorry many gamers feel this way. As a developer I LOVE that we can go back and add more to the experience. I am very much looking forward to doing DLC for our current game if gamers want it and the core game has enough fans.
The idea that the core game should have contained EVERYTHING I think just doesn't make sense at all to me. You don't expect the people who make LOST to have every single episode shot before they air the first one do you? All you expect is episode by episode is a great show, right?
To me, if your core game is worth the cash you spent- as I said- DLC should only add to your experience.
But as many know, I'm digging Darksiders right now. I've MORE than gotten my cash worth for that game. If they said 'hey, spend 10 bucks and get 2 new chapters of the story AND get a brand new character to play thru the core story with' I'd be like: SWEET!
I just don't get how gamers don't feel the same way.
I think the problem a lot of gamers have with DLC isn't a problem with the content itself, but the pricing of said content. Like the modern warfare 2 map packs that were 15 bucks, 5 dollar Yoda/Vader for Soul Calibur IV, the various BS prices for Street Fighter IV costumes, Resident Evil V multiplayer and Dead Space's weapon skins didn't help much either. Content such as the add-ons for Fallout 3 seem to be far more accepted by the gaming community because they add a lot to the game and don't leave you feeling nickel and dimed.
I think part of what Jaffe's saying is that it's subjective. There's no law against giving bad deals, just be prepared to lose money and business. It's up to each person to decide for themselves, I read this more as an appeal to reason since so many of us gamers get our panties in a twist over stuff that isn't so bad. I think that's important to remember.
But as a reinforcement of what he's specifically trying to get at with the "if what you view as the core experience isn't being compromised, then why is there an issue?" thing he said, I submit three games that stick out to me on this:
1 and 2 are Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion and Fallout 3, which I mentioned on YouTube. (I combine these because they're similar and both made by Bethesda.) In both of these games, you're getting a ton of game time off the disk you paid $60 for, easily 100+ hours in total. Most people would agree that game time was of high quality. Most people I think would consider that to be the core experience of both games, a core experience that most would agree to be uncompromised and well worth the $60.
Now, Bethesda goes and releases DLC for both games in the form of new quests, some quite story-heavy and such. Now that we've added DLC to the picture, does that core experience of 100 hours of quality game time suddenly and magically become compromised and not worth $60 just because we found out there's more? Or are we just being a tad selfish? Granted, that's traditional DLC, but even if they were on the disk, just like Jaffe said you got your core experience, what more do you want?
The third game I was thinking of is Resident Evil 5 which I remember mentioning to Jaffe on Twitter when the original discussion broke out. Capcom went through a big shit storm when they put locked MP on the disk and then charged $5 for unlocking it, literally what Jaffe is getting at here.
Everyone freaked out, but I wonder is it really justified? I mean, how many people bought RE5 for multiplayer? Seriously. The core experience I think for most people was the story campaign, and it was in no way compromised by the addition of a locked MP mode. So, is it worth getting so upset over something that for most people has no bearing at all really on their enjoyment of the main game?
That was a bit longer of a post than I intended but there you go. My three cents.
Also, since so many people throw a fuss over DLC, why have we been okay with expansion packs for the longest time? Expansion packs are just the same as DLC except longer, more expensive, and you usually buy them in a store instead of downloading them. Literally, it's the same thing, just throwing in some more levels on top of the main experience for those who want them.
DLC is good and i've bought my fare share,but I can't agree with locking disk content,especially when that content is typically skins and stuff,it's bullshit.
You mentioned a challenge room scenario,what would be the problem just having it unlocked on disk,and part of the $60 package. No matter how you look at it,the developer is making a decision to hold back part of the game that's been developed and completed in time for launch,so they can make a little more money.
Now some titles I can except unlock keys,little big planet is a perfect example. Since launch there have be numerous patches,a large number are simply 13mb content packs,you then buy the key and unlock the items. I think that's acceptable,and most consumers wouldn't have any issue with that.
Super street fighter 4 hasnt even launched in the UK yet,but today there is a £4 unlock key costume pack on PSN,do you honestly think that's fair,or acceptable towards the consumers?I think it's dick move.
I've gameshared once,my card got lost and I wanted PJ Eden on PS3,so a friend offered me the game.I took it. But a week later I purchased the game myself.I think that was ok.
Unless Sony lock your PSN to one PS3 it wont stop.hearing about the final fight drm,stopped me and plenty of others I know from getting the PSN version,This is why hope a download only future is a long time away,I dont want a company dictating how and under what conditions I play a game.
Glad to see your back doing your video blogs Jaffe.
I agree with you on the game sharing part but DLC is such a touchy subject. Sometimes it DOES feel like developers are only doing DLC to make some quick extra cash. I mean $60 is a lot of money for a game and when you compared it to Lost, the first thing I thought was...well I don't pay $60 to watch Lost on TV so they can do whatever they want. But when I pay $60 for a game, sometimes I feel like they've gotten enough money out of me where that DLC should be free.
But like you said...in some cases there are exceptions.
Glad to see you back though...and nice Australian accent too. Now go get a hair cut. lol.
Game Sharing: I Agree. My brother and my mother each have PS3's and when I go to their places I obviously play on them. I have my PSN accounts on there to collect trophies etc. I also download my content on to their HDDs so I can enjoy the stuff I paid for without lugging my own PS3 everywhere.
The idea of only being able to use that content while logged into my own account is a fair enough concept. Only one person can be logged into my account at once so it can only be enjoyed once at a time. However I submit that it's advantageous to allow the owners of those systems access to that content while I'm not there. It's their HDD space that it's taking up. If they can't use it, they won't keep it and it will have to be downloaded each time I visit.
But I won't put my PSN account on any system I don't intend to use myself. I don't keep it on my father's PS3, even though there's quite a bit of content he'd benefit from. I'd rather just get him a PSN card. My cousin has also begged to mooch off my Download List and I continually tell him to eat it.
Jaffe, i agree 100% with your rationale on on-disc DLC, however i think it's critical to understand the situation, also understanding that the general opinion on that kind of DLC stems much from an innate fear of recent business revolutions within the industry.
First, you have a business model that expects support for a game beyond it's release on an audience that for a loooong time hadn't had contact with such an idea.
Next, you have the same model which is deeming older models which also relied on extended support, albeit within a smaller public, but had none of the monetary concerns, inherently archaic.
None of this is inherently "evil", however, in a world where contact between high end publishers (for the sake of clarity, non-niche publishers) and developers, and consequent consumers is mostly based on PRs, at least on these kinds of subjects, there is a deficient understanding of what goes on behind the scenes.
For example, if someone like RisingsStar Games (or XSEED, or NIS America, or whoever you want) is having financial problems, and in turn taking into account business models which love our money more than they love us, there is enough contact between them and the consumer that these things are understood, giving the consumer a much stronger sense of knowledge, and he can safely make a more informed, and therefore better, decision.
When Activision comes and legally rapes our wallets, the only view we have of them is the "we want game making to not be fun" self they admitted they wanted to be.
When other companies do the same, with the same expectation of the consumer as Activision, without any kind safe relationship between them and the consumer, there is little else to do other than see Activision-like forced sexual abuse everywhere!
Not to offend with the sexual jokes, representing an opinion lacking legal value, so stay off, Activision.
Just wanted to point this out, love you guys, love you even more, Jaffe.
Great to have you back Mr.Jaffe. I understand where your coming from though. I guess it's more of a moral issue for people. I know that I would feel better knowing that the extra stuff is not on the disc I just bought but on the PSN service. To me it just seems kind of cheap. Especially when the extra stuff is not worth the five or ten dollars they want to charge for it.
The problem with DLC unlocking content on the disc is that it makes me feel like they're just trying to milk me for my money. And what could have been a better experience has now suffered for it. It doesn't matter if I already like the $60 value, I'd feel like content was withheld from me, and that's a pretty dick move.
I think this whole DLC debate is based on perspective. Personally I would understand if the extra content is available to us through unlockables where we need to beat the game a certain amount of times to unlock extra cloths for the character, for example. But to use the product disc as a storage device, per se, to release the content for another time is crap. Especially when money is involved. Regardless if the user had a great time with it or not it shouldn't matter. If you paid $60 for a game you expect to get everything that is on that disc. If not then the consumer feels cheated. And to me that's bad business.
my stand on this is simple if you can afford it there is no reason why you shouldnt buy it no matter what it is dlc or watever its tat simple but again thats IF you can afford it.
sounded like u were in an australian beer commercial lol
You should stop playing that Darksider game, it's a sub Zelda clone, with sub God of War like combat, all combined with shitty overcomplicated controls.
As of DLC, to be honest, I regret most of the stuff I bought. Most time, it just feels like it was way to expensive for what it's worth. And that when it's not fucking up the community/matchmaking like additional maps in FPS. I'm still pissed about the new maps of Resistance 2 and Motorstorm Pacific Rift, I haven't played much of R2's map online, but for Motorstorm, I never had the chance to play those new tracks online, and I bought them on day one. The only DLC I trully enjoyed so far are the GTA4 episodes.
I don't understand the fuss about game sharing, there is a way for developers to lock the content for 24 hours, it's too annoying to share if you have to wait 24 hours to play, and it automatically kills the sharing abuse.
@da_criminal: the problem is they'd never offer that for $10 - it'd be $20. DLC in general is so overpriced it's absurd. People used to bitch about $2 for Horse Armor, but now standard practice is $1 per character skin - $5 for a multiplayer map - $10 for an add-on that adds an hour of gameplay.
I agree with you for the most part on the DLC. But the main focus for me from the video was the hilarious ending. Love that you caught yourself and gave yourself shit for saying bye that way.
honestly with DLC I wish Capcom or who ever else would stop dragging it out. For instance the costumes in super street fighter 4. Why not just make all them available for purchase at one time instead of bring one out each week. As far if it's on the disc I could care less the only time I do care is when the game is short on content to begin with which unfortunately has been happening more than it should as of late. I do agree with you on game sharing it is total bullshit what I don't agree with having to have a constant internet connection to play a game like fatal fury so please don't use that kind of protection method for your game.
the david tennant ones and the new ones with matt smith are both good watch the tennant stuff if u get a chance because there are some references in the new one which are fun to know also all those games you picked up look absolutely awesome
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Sounds like a Australian accent ro me. Yep Doctor Who is amazing and you should watch the ones with David Tennant.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThat's a pretty good australian improv'd on the spot :)
ReplyDeleteSo will your game be worth $60? Free DLC?
I definitely see where you are coming from on the issue of DLC. I think it is too blurry of a line to really define what should and should not be done with regards to being sold content that is already on the disc.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I can tell you is if a company gives me a great value for the price and then goes ahead and unlocks additional content for free I will instantly consider anything that company sells down the road with a much more open mind.
When I am charged extra for things it doesn't bother me so much as make me feel like they aren't willing to take that extra step to make me feel appreciated as a customer.
Gotta love Doctor Who! Tennant is awesome, but Matt Smith is doing a good job following up, so enjoy!
ReplyDeleteYea, I'd pretty much agree with you there.
ReplyDeleteThe extra content maybe on the disk, but what you're getting is what's clearly labelled on back of the case.
You shouldn't then expect to get all of these extra's for free, just because it's on the disk. You got what you paid for, you enjoyed the game. Fair play.
I personally think it's good to have the option of being able to purchase DLC, and the reason most dev's put it onto the disk is because it would save a lot of time downloading the extra content, if you could just pay for an unlock code. I hope that makes sense?
Anyway, I'm English myself, and couldn't agree with you more.
One complaint I do have is when (say for example Ubisoft) take content out of Assassins Creed 2, just to make you pay for it at a later date, and then saying it's integral to the storyline.
If it was integral to the storyline, then surely it should have been included in the plot from the start?
ah well, it's business, but yea. Thanks Dave. I always like reading your twitter feeds, and keeping up to date, seeing what you're up to.
Take care, and have a great week!
Glad your youtube is up and running again! Hope to finally see what you are upto when E3 Hits!
ReplyDeleteJust a quick comment about the horse-shit-game-share issue. Sony already has a system in place to stop multiple PS3 playing the same "game copy". Not all games are using it but Warhawk does. If you play Warhawk on machine A, you will not be able to play on machine B in the next 24 hours.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I'm getting sick of DLC. Sometimes I just feel like publishers are leaving good stuff out on purpose and then trying to get more money out of me. Granted, half the time it's worth it, but sometimes it's just, to quote Mr. Jaffe, horseshit!
ReplyDeleteLook, I understand it's a business and if you look at it from a commerce standpoint, DLC is genius. However, it just comes off as being a disservice sometimes. Look at what Activision just did with MW2: $15 friggin' dollars for 3 new maps plus 2 OLD MAPS THAT I ALREADY OWN ON MW1! I don't see that as $3 a map, it's more like $5 each for 3 maps and some 'bonus' nostalgia. Not worth it, IMO.
Meanwhile, other games like KZ2 and U2 have been getting new dlc for $5-$6 which include maps, weapons, trophies, game modes, etc. So they make up the 50% that makes purchasing dlc worth it.
I'm more of the mindset where, like you mentioned in your video blog, if the game is a good enough experience where I feel my $60 was money well spent (like KZ2 and U2 - neither of which I purchases the DLC for, mind you), then I should be happy and not feel letdown when a company releases new DLC that probably should've been in the game from the beginning bringing my initial $60 purchase to $75.
Okay...the thing that pisses me off about on disc DLC is last gen when we didn't have DLC as widespread...or much at all in the case of the PS2 how would that content have been provided? If it was done when the game was done it was on the disc and you played it.
ReplyDeleteWhat used to be a cheat code to unlock content is now 5 dollars.
The only time I think on disc DLC is okay is if its given free to the non used game buyers. Support the people that are supporting you.
I totally agree with you on game sharing - if you burned off a DVD and shared it with your friends, Im pretty sure you could get in a load of shit for it.
ReplyDeleteI kind of agree with you on DLC - I think EA is handling it the best right now, trying to cut down on the abuse of the trade-in market.
That said, I do like some aspects of trading in... I broke my PSP screen today and Im trading in 5 games for a refurbished PSP-2000, so Im kind of conflicted on this now that I think about it lol
But yeah, game sharing is horse shit. Doctor Who is the hot sauce, but never forget - Dexter is king!
LMAO@you laughing at yourself at the end of this video. Fucking hilarious man!
ReplyDeletebtw, I often hear you talk about people being fanboys and how you are not one and I just have to say, although I have never been one either, I did own an xbox 360 since it came out. I recently traded my 20gb xbox 360 with some games for a 120gb ps3 and I love the ps3 already way more than I ever did my xbox 360. I love the fact the online is free because it really is great online for what I need it for. I love the wifi being built in and I love the ps3 exclusives way more than the xbox 360 exclusives. Anyway, kind of random just thought I would tell you that.
ReplyDeletelmao the last 10 secs was awesome!
ReplyDeleteim going to check out dr who now thanks for the heads up on it
I am fine with extra content as DLC or on the disk via a code release. The only let down I have had with DLC was with KZ2. I spent my $12 on the 2 DLC packs that came out, however when DLC Pack 3 comes out for $6 but you can buy all 3 for $12 I felt the screw job on that one. Now I am paying $18 for something that now costs $12. That's just my 2 cents.
ReplyDeleteAs for the good Doctor, the shows from the mid 80's weren't so bad either. It is just finding the time to watch them.
I just thought of the perfect analogy for the DLC on disk problem. It would be like paying for a hotel room and they keep the drink/snack bar locked. If you want to eat/drink anything in there you will have to pay. Are you entitled to get it for free just because it is within the room you pay for? No... if they werent going to charge for it, they wouldnt put it there in the first place.
ReplyDeleteAnd you as a customer paid for the room which you hope includes; a bed, bathroom, maybe a window and a TV. They arent locking the bathroom and charging you, just extras that you dont depend on to enjoy your stay.
Whatcha think of that!
Good Shit Jaffe. Dig the opinions, always enjoy your video blogs.
ReplyDeleteHad me cracking up at the end. "What the fuck kind of accent was that" LOL
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everything thanks for the clarifications. The example you gave with that game i hate Batman was really good, but still love game sharing for DLC. Yeah i know is mainly just good for the gamers. But video games mostly make ton of extra profit. I own just the first DLC for Warahwk the rest is by game sharing. Proud Warhawk owner on Blu-ray Disc since 2007.
ReplyDeleteHey I just found out about your blog and I love your videos and posts. I agree as well about the DLC. Luckily I've never felt cheated but, I just wanted to say great video and keep them coming!
ReplyDeleteHaha, loved the accent at the end!
ReplyDeleteAs a Brit, it's strange to see Americans amused by Doctor Who, because we all watch it in a sort of ironic way; it's a symbol of Britain, so the shows problems don't get to us. But yeah, the general audience is parents and children, so you'll do good to welcome it into your life. And I'm agreeing with Rob down here V V David Tenant was the best modern Doctor. Phenomenal as the character.
As a customer I love game sharing. Besides if I owned Batman I could take it to my freinds house and play it. Without game sharing this is not possible with psn games. Add to that the fact that you own NONE of your downloaded games, I don't feel bad at all. I say you don't own them because when there is no more psn you can't go back and download things you would have "bought", you're only renting the games. 30 years from now I can put in Killzone 2 and play it. How would I redownload Pain? I won't be able to. Unless I kept all the games I've ever downloaded on my harddrive, who has room for that. I can't even make a nonplayable backup on a harddrive to restore to my PS3 later.
ReplyDeleteAs far as dlc goes, it's just a money grab. That's part of the business now. Most of it is a rip off. If the game is multiplatform even more so. I bought the PS3 because it uses blu-ray, more space for gaming goodness, I thought. Instead I get the same game that's available on dvd9 and get to pay for "extra" content. Yeah right. I like how MAG dosen't even pretend to download anything, but they've been free so it's cool.
I could go on forever but I'll stop.
I agree with the game sharing problem, I think it's bullshit that people hand out their extra downloads to their friends, then they can keep it on their system and play it whenever they want. In my opinion Valve have got it right with Steam, were you can download it as many times as you want, on as many systems as you want, but that content can only be accessed with your account.
ReplyDeleteAs for Dr. Who, wait until the Weeping angels episode (Think it's the fourth one) it's one of the best Dr. Who episodes I have seen in a long time.
Also I'd just like to say I literally just bought the God of War collection ten minutes before coming on here (It has only just been released here in the UK). I never played the first two God of War games, but I have to say I'm fucking loving it and you and the team certainly did a fine job, but my god I'm crap at it.
Michael, I really don't see DLC as a money grab and am sorry many gamers feel this way. As a developer I LOVE that we can go back and add more to the experience. I am very much looking forward to doing DLC for our current game if gamers want it and the core game has enough fans.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that the core game should have contained EVERYTHING I think just doesn't make sense at all to me. You don't expect the people who make LOST to have every single episode shot before they air the first one do you? All you expect is episode by episode is a great show, right?
To me, if your core game is worth the cash you spent- as I said- DLC should only add to your experience.
But as many know, I'm digging Darksiders right now. I've MORE than gotten my cash worth for that game. If they said 'hey, spend 10 bucks and get 2 new chapters of the story AND get a brand new character to play thru the core story with' I'd be like: SWEET!
I just don't get how gamers don't feel the same way.
David
I think the problem a lot of gamers have with DLC isn't a problem with the content itself, but the pricing of said content. Like the modern warfare 2 map packs that were 15 bucks, 5 dollar Yoda/Vader for Soul Calibur IV, the various BS prices for Street Fighter IV costumes, Resident Evil V multiplayer and Dead Space's weapon skins didn't help much either. Content such as the add-ons for Fallout 3 seem to be far more accepted by the gaming community because they add a lot to the game and don't leave you feeling nickel and dimed.
ReplyDeleteI think part of what Jaffe's saying is that it's subjective. There's no law against giving bad deals, just be prepared to lose money and business. It's up to each person to decide for themselves, I read this more as an appeal to reason since so many of us gamers get our panties in a twist over stuff that isn't so bad. I think that's important to remember.
ReplyDeleteBut as a reinforcement of what he's specifically trying to get at with the "if what you view as the core experience isn't being compromised, then why is there an issue?" thing he said, I submit three games that stick out to me on this:
1 and 2 are Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion and Fallout 3, which I mentioned on YouTube. (I combine these because they're similar and both made by Bethesda.) In both of these games, you're getting a ton of game time off the disk you paid $60 for, easily 100+ hours in total. Most people would agree that game time was of high quality. Most people I think would consider that to be the core experience of both games, a core experience that most would agree to be uncompromised and well worth the $60.
Now, Bethesda goes and releases DLC for both games in the form of new quests, some quite story-heavy and such. Now that we've added DLC to the picture, does that core experience of 100 hours of quality game time suddenly and magically become compromised and not worth $60 just because we found out there's more? Or are we just being a tad selfish? Granted, that's traditional DLC, but even if they were on the disk, just like Jaffe said you got your core experience, what more do you want?
The third game I was thinking of is Resident Evil 5 which I remember mentioning to Jaffe on Twitter when the original discussion broke out. Capcom went through a big shit storm when they put locked MP on the disk and then charged $5 for unlocking it, literally what Jaffe is getting at here.
Everyone freaked out, but I wonder is it really justified? I mean, how many people bought RE5 for multiplayer? Seriously. The core experience I think for most people was the story campaign, and it was in no way compromised by the addition of a locked MP mode. So, is it worth getting so upset over something that for most people has no bearing at all really on their enjoyment of the main game?
That was a bit longer of a post than I intended but there you go. My three cents.
Also, since so many people throw a fuss over DLC, why have we been okay with expansion packs for the longest time? Expansion packs are just the same as DLC except longer, more expensive, and you usually buy them in a store instead of downloading them. Literally, it's the same thing, just throwing in some more levels on top of the main experience for those who want them.
ReplyDeleteDLC is good and i've bought my fare share,but I can't agree with locking disk content,especially when that content is typically skins and stuff,it's bullshit.
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned a challenge room scenario,what would be the problem just having it unlocked on disk,and part of the $60 package.
No matter how you look at it,the developer is making a decision to hold back part of the game that's been developed and completed in time for launch,so they can make a little more money.
Now some titles I can except unlock keys,little big planet is a perfect example.
Since launch there have be numerous patches,a large number are simply 13mb content packs,you then buy the key and unlock the items.
I think that's acceptable,and most consumers wouldn't have any issue with that.
Super street fighter 4 hasnt even launched in the UK yet,but today there is a £4 unlock key costume pack on PSN,do you honestly think that's fair,or acceptable towards the consumers?I think it's dick move.
I've gameshared once,my card got lost and I wanted PJ Eden on PS3,so a friend offered me the game.I took it.
But a week later I purchased the game myself.I think that was ok.
Unless Sony lock your PSN to one PS3 it wont stop.hearing about the final fight drm,stopped me and plenty of others I know from getting the PSN version,This is why hope a download only future is a long time away,I dont want a company dictating how and under what conditions I play a game.
Glad to see your back doing your video blogs Jaffe.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on the game sharing part but DLC is such a touchy subject. Sometimes it DOES feel like developers are only doing DLC to make some quick extra cash. I mean $60 is a lot of money for a game and when you compared it to Lost, the first thing I thought was...well I don't pay $60 to watch Lost on TV so they can do whatever they want. But when I pay $60 for a game, sometimes I feel like they've gotten enough money out of me where that DLC should be free.
But like you said...in some cases there are exceptions.
Glad to see you back though...and nice Australian accent too. Now go get a hair cut. lol.
Game Sharing: I Agree. My brother and my mother each have PS3's and when I go to their places I obviously play on them. I have my PSN accounts on there to collect trophies etc. I also download my content on to their HDDs so I can enjoy the stuff I paid for without lugging my own PS3 everywhere.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of only being able to use that content while logged into my own account is a fair enough concept. Only one person can be logged into my account at once so it can only be enjoyed once at a time. However I submit that it's advantageous to allow the owners of those systems access to that content while I'm not there. It's their HDD space that it's taking up. If they can't use it, they won't keep it and it will have to be downloaded each time I visit.
But I won't put my PSN account on any system I don't intend to use myself. I don't keep it on my father's PS3, even though there's quite a bit of content he'd benefit from. I'd rather just get him a PSN card. My cousin has also begged to mooch off my Download List and I continually tell him to eat it.
Jaffe, i agree 100% with your rationale on on-disc DLC, however i think it's critical to understand the situation, also understanding that the general opinion on that kind of DLC stems much from an innate fear of recent business revolutions within the industry.
ReplyDeleteFirst, you have a business model that expects support for a game beyond it's release on an audience that for a loooong time hadn't had contact with such an idea.
Next, you have the same model which is deeming older models which also relied on extended support, albeit within a smaller public, but had none of the monetary concerns, inherently archaic.
None of this is inherently "evil", however, in a world where contact between high end publishers (for the sake of clarity, non-niche publishers) and developers, and consequent consumers is mostly based on PRs, at least on these kinds of subjects, there is a deficient understanding of what goes on behind the scenes.
For example, if someone like RisingsStar Games (or XSEED, or NIS America, or whoever you want) is having financial problems, and in turn taking into account business models which love our money more than they love us, there is enough contact between them and the consumer that these things are understood, giving the consumer a much stronger sense of knowledge, and he can safely make a more informed, and therefore better, decision.
When Activision comes and legally rapes our wallets, the only view we have of them is the "we want game making to not be fun" self they admitted they wanted to be.
When other companies do the same, with the same expectation of the consumer as Activision, without any kind safe relationship between them and the consumer, there is little else to do other than see Activision-like forced sexual abuse everywhere!
Not to offend with the sexual jokes, representing an opinion lacking legal value, so stay off, Activision.
Just wanted to point this out, love you guys, love you even more, Jaffe.
Great to have you back Mr.Jaffe. I understand where your coming from though. I guess it's more of a moral issue for people. I know that I would feel better knowing that the extra stuff is not on the disc I just bought but on the PSN service. To me it just seems kind of cheap. Especially when the extra stuff is not worth the five or ten dollars they want to charge for it.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with DLC unlocking content on the disc is that it makes me feel like they're just trying to milk me for my money. And what could have been a better experience has now suffered for it. It doesn't matter if I already like the $60 value, I'd feel like content was withheld from me, and that's a pretty dick move.
ReplyDeleteJaffe - The PROBLEM is DLC is NOT worth it most of the time. AND overpriced - see Activision
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhen are you gonna talk about God of War 3? I really wanna know what you think about it after beating it.
ReplyDeleteI think this whole DLC debate is based on perspective. Personally I would understand if the extra content is available to us through unlockables where we need to beat the game a certain amount of times to unlock extra cloths for the character, for example. But to use the product disc as a storage device, per se, to release the content for another time is crap. Especially when money is involved. Regardless if the user had a great time with it or not it shouldn't matter. If you paid $60 for a game you expect to get everything that is on that disc. If not then the consumer feels cheated. And to me that's bad business.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletestick batman up ur ass hahahahaha classic
ReplyDeletemy stand on this is simple if you can afford it there is no reason why you shouldnt buy it no matter what it is dlc or watever its tat simple but again thats IF you can afford it.
sounded like u were in an australian beer commercial lol
You should stop playing that Darksider game, it's a sub Zelda clone, with sub God of War like combat, all combined with shitty overcomplicated controls.
ReplyDeleteAs of DLC, to be honest, I regret most of the stuff I bought. Most time, it just feels like it was way to expensive for what it's worth. And that when it's not fucking up the community/matchmaking like additional maps in FPS. I'm still pissed about the new maps of Resistance 2 and Motorstorm Pacific Rift, I haven't played much of R2's map online, but for Motorstorm, I never had the chance to play those new tracks online, and I bought them on day one. The only DLC I trully enjoyed so far are the GTA4 episodes.
I don't understand the fuss about game sharing, there is a way for developers to lock the content for 24 hours, it's too annoying to share if you have to wait 24 hours to play, and it automatically kills the sharing abuse.
@da_criminal: the problem is they'd never offer that for $10 - it'd be $20. DLC in general is so overpriced it's absurd. People used to bitch about $2 for Horse Armor, but now standard practice is $1 per character skin - $5 for a multiplayer map - $10 for an add-on that adds an hour of gameplay.
ReplyDeletePublishers need to up the value proposition.
I agree with you for the most part on the DLC. But the main focus for me from the video was the hilarious ending. Love that you caught yourself and gave yourself shit for saying bye that way.
ReplyDeletehonestly with DLC I wish Capcom or who ever else would stop dragging it out. For instance the costumes in super street fighter 4. Why not just make all them available for purchase at one time instead of bring one out each week. As far if it's on the disc I could care less the only time I do care is when the game is short on content to begin with which unfortunately has been happening more than it should as of late. I do agree with you on game sharing it is total bullshit what I don't agree with having to have a constant internet connection to play a game like fatal fury so please don't use that kind of protection method for your game.
ReplyDeletethe david tennant ones and the new ones with matt smith are both good watch the tennant stuff if u get a chance because there are some references in the new one which are fun to know
ReplyDeletealso all those games you picked up look absolutely awesome
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